By now I’m sure you have heard all about actor/director Kevin Smith AKA “Silent Bob” getting kicked off a Southwest flight for being fat. There has been some back and forth between Smith and Southwest about the actual reason he got kicked off the flight. Southwest says it was because he booked two seats on a later flight but instead chose to fly standby on an earlier flight with only one seat available. Smith says it is all about his girth, that Southwest told him he was a “safety hazard” to which he responded, “What, was I going to roll over on a fellow passenger?” Southwest points out they gave him a $100 voucher for the inconvenience. Smith got the last word in, however, tweeting hilariously “the side of the plane was opened & I was airlifted out while Richard Simmons supervised.” Adding awesomely, “You messed with the wrong sedentary processed-food eater!” The lesson here folks is that funny always wins. Always.
This whole debacle, besides providing a dose of hilarity that I sorely needed today, has reopened the debate about overweight passengers on airplanes. I will admit to some ambivalence on this issue. I once spent an entire 3 hours flight wedged next to a girl who had just undergone bariatric surgery and was flying home to her parents. She was thirteen. So, yeah, I had to spend 3 hours sitting on my neighbor’s lap. But at least I wasn’t a thirteen-year-old who had just had bariatric surgery alone. My discomfort was nothing compared to hers. I decided that day to always err on the side of kindness.
And that was even before I became the most hated person on the airplane.
You know what’s worse than an overweight person taking up two chairs? Me, walking down the gateway with all of my young children. I’ve seen people throw themselves out of those tiny airplane windows rather than sit next to me and my brood. One of the most humiliating episodes of my life occurred on a 4-hr flight after a 6-hr layover. I had two teeeny tiny boys and was 8 months pregnant with number 3. Unfortunately the younger one – for reasons still unknown to me as he was pre-verbal – decided to shriek for the duration. I was already near tears myself from his relentless crying when the man sitting in front of me turned around and yelled, “For God’s sake, will you feed it already or something?” I burst into tears and yelled back, “Oh you’re supposed to feed these things? Why didn’t anyone tell me before??” His retort? “They should have never let you on this plane.” (Indeed, in 2008 a woman and her autistic toddler son were kicked off a flight because the boy was “too chatty.”)
It might have got ugly had the flight attendant not intervened. She escorted me and the crying son to the back of the plane where she got out milk and cookies. Which she then fed to me while she rocked my crying baby. Another mother then came back and offered to take turns holding him, explaining that she had 4 kids herself (now grown) and asked to switch the man seats so she could sit by us. She played cheerio bingo with my older son for the rest of the flight.
For me it’s not so much an issue of fat acceptance but rather people acceptance. Kids are people. Overweight people are people. The handicapped are people. The guy who ate three chili cheese dogs and then filled the plane with his toxic gas is still a person. Does it suck being squished into half a seat? Absolutely. Crying babies, barfing, snoring, incessant humming, seat kicking – there are lots of ways that public transportation, which is what flying is, can totally suck. But the perpetrators are still people. And people deserve to be treated with civility.
So does that mean overweight people should have to buy a second seat if they don’t fit in one? Perhaps, as it will probably make everyone more comfortable – Kevin Smith seemed okay with this part of it. But should they be shamed into doing it? Or arbitrarily kicked off a flight? Or in any other manner humiliated? No.
I’ve said it before but whoever you are – no matter your weight, mental capacity or even air-sickness propensity – as long as you keep your hands to yourself, you can sit next to me. That is, if you don’t mind my children.
What do you guys think of all this? Anyone else ever been humiliated on an airplane? Should overweight people have to buy an extra seat or should airlines make bigger seats?
*Except for terrorists. They should totally be kicked off airplanes. Preferably while still in flight.
"oh, you're supposed to feed these things-why didn't someone tell me before??" Ah sheer genius, I would have burst out laughing if I was in the vicinity, then I would have secretly thrown things at the man in front of you for the duration of the flight.
Oh man, that is such a charged question- two seats or one. I would have to say that it depends on how big they are. If they really do spill over into someone else's space, then it's not fair to the unspilling person. Or if it's a matter of safety.
Trust me on this one- the heavy person is in sooooooooo much torment already without the embarrassment of buying an extra seat or being ridiculed. When I was heavy I remember my ass just "feeling" the sides of the seats and it made my skin crawl. I wanted to just escape out of my skin and hide. Horrific beyond belief.
Fat people endure a lot of everyday mis-treatment and yet it has no reflection on their worth as a human being. It's a very sad situation.
A few years ago now, I was stuck in an airport for a layover of a flight that got delayed. A family with two little kids happened to be seated near me, and the kids understandably got restless – and then loud and fidgety. I just happened to have my laptop and a DVD of "Monsters Inc" with me, which I set up in an empty seat. The two kids sat on the floor, watching the movie, and I got to read my book in peace. Now, I try to have a kid-friendly DVD with me any time I'm flying and taking my laptop, as well as a book – we're all happier.
I also was on a flight to Chicago a few summers ago, and sat down in front of a mom with two kids. As her kids fidgeted, the mom told us not to worry, she had just given her children benadryl, and if we could tolerate them kicking the backs of our seats for about 15 minutes, the medicine would kick in and they'd sleep for the rest of the flight. And they did!
As for overweight people… I don't know. Some people can't afford two seats, or one seat in first class. I've seen various comments on news sites reporting this story. Some of them pointed out that it's not just overweight people – many tall people (or just people over 6 foot) don't have enough room for their legs in front of their seats. Hell, on some flights, they pack so many people onto the planes that only tweens are comfortable in the seats.
Then there were other commenters who said the overweight people were the least annoying of all on planes – they're often so aware and embarrassed of their size to start with that they'll do all they can to not be more intrusive of your personal space. Compare that to the people who insist on talking to you (or hitting on you) the whole flight, the people who kick your seat (and not kids who don't know any better), the people who burp or fart or otherwise smell, the drunks, the people who snore, the people who talk loudly (to you or someone else) for the whole flight… Point being, if there was an annoyance fee to fly, a lot more people would be charged than just overweight people.
"For me it's not so much an issue of fat acceptance but rather people acceptance. Kids are people. Overweight people are people. The handicapped are people. The guy who ate three chili cheese dogs and then filled the plane with his toxic gas is still a person. Does it suck being squished into half a seat? Absolutely. Crying babies, barfing, snoring, incessant humming, seat kicking – there are lots of ways that public transportation, which is what flying is, can totally suck. But the perpetrators are still people. And people deserve to be treated with civility."
Hear hear!
Having sat opposite a woman with a squirming bub recently and watched her try so hard to calm the kid down, I have no problem with crying kids etc. It's when (and I've seen it) the parents AREN'T trying to do anything and the kid just runs rampant. I was on a flight a while back where the kid behind me kicked my seat for the entire flight. I tried asking the kid to stop, asking the parents, engaging the kid and all I got was yelled at by the parents … Ugh.
But I do think people lose sight of the fact that we're all people. Nobody likes hearing a kid cry for hours in a confined space. Nobody likes to be uncomfortable in their seat. The truth is that airplane seats are small to start with, so even if you're just a little bigger than their definition of average, you're going to spill over.
All it is about is consideration really.
Thing is, grossly overweight passengers *are* a safety concern, and not because they might roll over on people. If there is an emergency evacuation, I don't want to die because the obese person next to me is so wedged into his or her seat that my passage to the aisle is blocked. Unlikely? Yes, but it's still not a risk that I should have to take because of an unlucky seat assignment.
Making the seats bigger just means that thin passengers will subsidize obese passengers. This doesn't seem fair, either, and certainly won't help thin-fat relations.
I think that airlines should charge a fixed price for each seat (less for the last row by the johns) and a surcharge that varies by the total weight of the passenger and his/her baggage. Overweight passengers would pay more for their seats than light passengers, but so would the overpackers who are incapable of traveling on a weekend trip without taking the contents of their house in a samsonite. This pricing structure is rational and fair, because there is a direct relationship between weight, fuel use, and CO2 emissions.
yeah, I know it's unlikely. But I bet airline execs are thinking about it too, wistfully.
I read a book all about DYING i(or survival) n various situations and statistically it is not obese people trapping folks in airplanes, it is women my age, middle-aged and older who in a panic for some reason, don't function as well. You are more likely to die in your plane if you sit in a row with a middle aged woman. Avoid them at all cost. And if it's me, and I'm overweight, I'll knock your fricken head off getting out of the plane. You watch how fast I move.
I also think one reason there weren't enough statistics to include obese people is because they are already too ashamed to get on a plane. So much shame..though with the way most people eat, the obese will outweigh in numbers the thin and fit. So maybe airplanes should just allow more room (though that will never happen).
No one should get kicked off the plane except those people who were playing a card game of WAR on the tray of my seat for several hours.
As a surgeon, pilot, and health and fitness blogger. I think I can see this problem from several points of view. I wish all the seats in airlines were bigger, and the whole space was roomier as it once was, but those days are gone. I feel a useful solution would be to have some of the three abreast seats converted to two seats. The cost could be more than a smaller single seat, but less than two seats. This would accommodate folks who were larger, whether a 6′9 basketball player or whatever. I wouldn’t want this to acquire a nasty termed area of the plane, but I can’t control people’s cruelty, only suggest an idea to
help the situation. In addition, I would think this would allow people who have avoided flying to fly more, thus making the idea more acceptable to the airlines.
Makes you want to escape your skin and hide? If you hate yourself that much, there's action to be taken. Do something about it or deal with the consequences and stop whining.
Can't afford two seats? If they're big enough to spill over into another seat and you don't have a medical condition, you can obviously afford to eat for three people.
I totally agree with the commenter that says the kids that bother me are the ones whose parents don't do anything about it. Kids will be kids and sometimes you've done all you can, and duct tape is the only way.
The plane is small enough for people not overweight. I only have sympathy for those that have a medical condition are actually trying to do something to fix it.
I'm not sure what Kevin Smith's size is, but it sounds to me like he's lashing out because he's embarrassed about himself. Southwest had every right and shouldn't be punished for his bad choices.
"err on the side of kindness" very well put.
i still think that if youre a certain size you should have to buy two seats. as you say, people are people and that includes me who certainly doesn't want to be smushed into the next passenger. but i also think that it can be done in a much more humane manner than it's been in the past.
I've never had a bad experience on a plane where I was causing a problem or discomfort, but I HAVE had to sit next to crying children for 10 hours heading back from Europe and I will admit I was annoyed. But I wouldn't dream of actually saying something to the parents, unless one of the kids kicked me or threw something at me. I mean, I'm sure their parents hear the screaming/crying/wailing and are probably embarrassed and exhausted enough without me being like, "Hey, make your kid shut it!" … if they could do something to stop the screaming, they would have already done it. So I just tried to ignore it and watch my in-flight movie. The WORST airplane offenders, imo, aren't kids or the overweight, but perfectly fine, grown, adult people who insist on trying to strike up conversation with you and be your plane buddy for the duration of the flight. My feeling is… if you see me with headphones on, staring at the screen in front of me, or reading something, I think it's pretty clear I don't want to chat. Which… doesn't mean I'm unfriendly, necessarily, but 7-10 hours is a LOOOOONG time to make smalltalk with a stranger, especially since I will also have to maybe try to nap next to this person.
My sis in law goes through angst when flying – she's a big girl, and usually sits next to the window with my brother next to her…then he gets sort of squished, but the other person is OK. I just bring headphones and expect anything on a plane…crying children is hard, but who knows what the little people are going through on the flight. I figure I can't judge…I don't have any.
My only issue is drinken idiots and really sick people next to me on a plane…I'm a germophobe…:)
I did bring back a penguin figure on the plane that wouldn't fit into overhead storage, so the belted him into the seat next to me…and offered him drinks and snacks too. It was fun…
As far as the safety, from what I've read, it's not so much an issue of blocking people in their seats as it is overall weight and weight distribution. Apparently the bigger the plane, the less it matters, but on one of those really small ones that connect you from a tiny airport to a bigger hub (you know, two seats, aisle, one seat), if the plane is full and one passenger weighs 200 pounds more than average, it can throw off the overall weight or the weight distribution enough to be a problem. I read somewhere that Kevin's flight was a connector flight, though I don't know what size, and that it was full (which was why he couldn't get a second seat), so there truly may have been a safety concern there.
To the Anonymous who said if you're that embarrassed about your weight, do something to change it – but made an exception for people who are trying but have medical conditions… The problem I have with that is it's really not your business or your place to be deciding who needs to essentially be shamed into weight loss. You can't tell, looking at someone on an airplane, who has a medical condition hindering their weight loss and who doesn't. You also can't tell who will take a public humiliation and use it as a catalyst for change – and who will become some embarrassed that he will go home and drown his embarrassment in more emotional binging, making the situation worse. Several people on here have mentioned other irritating passengers, but if someone smelled, would you take it upon yourself to call him out on the plane and use it as a platform to publicly embarrass him and tell him how he should be showering to smell better? Yeah, sitting next to someone who needs some extra space can be irritating, but that person's weight and the reasons that person got there are just not your business. If simply being that size is embarrassing to the person, then maybe that can inspire the person to change. Or maybe the person's doctor or close family members, knowing the person's history and medical conditions, can broach the subject and suggest change. But it is NOT your holier-than-thou right to shame that person into changing something that is not your business and that he may have little control over in the first place.
Oh, to all those who are overweight or have overweight loved ones (but don't necessarily have the money to buy first class every time):
A close family member of mine is fairly overweight (with several medical conditions essentially halting weight loss, rude anonymous). He has discovered that often when you get to the airport and check in, if the plane is not full, you can upgrade to first class for a much, much, much lower price than originally booking a first class ticket. (I don't know the exact price). You can't count on it happening, because it's only available if there are extra seats available, and if they aren't available then you're still in coach. But if you're bigger (or have long legs) and are trying to watch your money, it's something to look for.
I support the buying of two seats for largely overweight people. Look at it from the other side – if I'm only able to sit in half my seat because of spillover, I'm essentially paying full price for half a seat, which isn't fair either.
I will also admit, crying children annoy me, but I never say anything. I was once trapped on a 14 hour flight (after a 3 hour connecting flight) to Australia where a toddler screamed the entire way there. 17 hours is too long to go without sleep, notwithstanding the fact that I try to go to sleep ASAP because I hate air travel, and I couldn't drown out the child even with headphones.
I was hoping the parents would cave and eventually drug the child, but no luck. Maybe that's mean of me, but I found it mean of the child/parents to make me so sleep deprived and anxious.
Well written! I'm impressed, I'm pro the fat acceptance community and have read quite a few responses on this kurfuffle but yours is the best so far. You're right, it's a matter of treating people well and without shaming them, not a matter of what size seat they fill (whether it's due to fatness or being a wee toddler). Personally I do think that more extended sized seating needs to be made available, my husband is super tall and hates flying because most seats don't accommodate him. He'd definitely pay a bit more to get bigger seat!
You're awesome. 😀
i think you know how I feel – like you, I can see it both ways but still think the bottom line is, it sticks that we even have to debate it, and that people are publcly humiliated because of their weight.
I used to cringe at babies on planes but once I hit my late 20s and my friends started having kids, I became more compassionate. It's not like moms WANT thier child to scream. And some times, the kid might be screaming because he's in pain – i used to have horrible ear problems on planes and would be in such pain for hours, and no one could do anything about it. (I was afraid to plug my nose and blow; gum didn't help.) Maybe airlines should just start handing out noise-cancelling headphones and blindfolds on all flights.
The only time I have ever had to take action on an airplane was on a three-hour flight from Los Cabos, Mexico, when a family with three young children sat behind me, and then the parents proceeded to fall into a margarita-induced sleep. The children cried, kicked our chairs and wandered back and forth between the aisles until we finally got the flight attendant to wake up the parents. I wouldn't have dared try to wake them myself, with all the volatile people in the world. I try to act with compassion, having raised four children of my own, but there comes a time, when you are trapped in a confined space and having paid a lot of money to get where you're going, that you just have to take action.
As for the weight issue, I think that the idea of having some seating rearranged to accomodate two wider chairs instead of three narrow ones is a great idea. They are doing that now in some movie theaters, and it has enabled heavier people to select a comfortable seat without drawing too much attention to themselves or being embarrassed.
Let's all try to be kinder to eachother, folks.
great debate topic!! I agree with the person who said she shouldn't have to pay full price for a half seat. I have been in this position a few times and it is quite uncomfortable. The bottom line is we are extremely unhealthy as a country. We need to encourage one another to get healthy and lose weight. I don't know if making bigger seats is going to do that. This is becoming more and more of an issue, even passenger seats in cars are bigger and instead of dealing with the REAL problem, we are talking about work-arounds. That isn't helping anyone!
If I'm taking up two seats, I don't have a problem with paying for two seats. (If I can't afford two seats, then I would say I can't afford to fly.)
I love the 'err on the side of kindness' idea. And I love that woman who switched seats with angry man — a simple kindness that made a difference.
I love Dr. J's idea. United has special seats you can upgrade to with more leg room – which I have done when available given my height. If they made them wider and with more legroom (like the old business class) then anyone could take advantage of them, even a short skinny person that just wanted a bit more space.
Yes, overweight people are people but so are average weight people. You have no right to infringe on someone else's personal space. Kevin Smith is lashing out because he thinks he's too famous to be treated like just another fat guy.
FYI, In Canada, obese people only have to purchase one seat- compliments of a professor at my law school who led a crusade to the Supreme Court. Here's a link to the article (or you can just google "Linda McKay-Panos)
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20081120/scc_ruling_081120/20081120?hub=Health
There seem to be a lot of people that are complaining about safety, and infringing on peoples' space. I'm glad the SCC has ruled the way it did- people who are obese suffer a lot of discrimination generally speaking, and I don't think they should be hindered from visiting family at Christmas, or attending a funeral or a wedding because they need to purchase 2 seats.
Further to that, seat prices within Canada are ridiculous- it's cheaper to fly round trip to London, UK, than from Toronto to Calgary. Perhaps that played an influence in the SCC's decision?
With flying- kids don't bother me, I was one once, and I was a little brat (I was just very colicky and ….annoying generally). I feel like it's the universe paying me karma for those temper-tantrums in the mall when I was 2, screaming and kicking on the floor in the middle of the food court. Yes, I was a classy little gal.
Now, sick people and over-perfumed people DO irritate me. I get a headache really quickly with perfume, and I really dislike being sick.
Sooner or later airlines are going to have to start accommodating larger people a little better. This not only goes for the overweight folks but also those of above-average height. Sure, they're trying to pack as many people as possible into that space to attempt to increase profits but with the general trend of increasing height and girth, sooner or later airlines are going to have to make more room. Sure, the small fry ends up subsidizing the big guy but that's the only way to make sure people are treated like people. You can't shame someone into losing girth any more than you can shame someone into losing height.
If the reason for this guy being kicked off the plane is really because his weight throws the balance off, there is some serious engineering flaw in that airliner. If weight distribution were so critical that a few hundred pounds made that big of a difference, ALL passengers would ALWAYS be loaded according to weight.
you crack me up!
I agree–people acceptance. As someone who has flown with small kids, I've gotten the looks and snide comments. It's not like we WANT our kids to misbehave/scream/hurl but we are allowed to travel too!
same thing with bigger people. As long as they fit in their seat, they should be allowed on! I do think they need to be forced to buy two seats though if necessary but not sure how to enforce that? A measuring area like they do for your carry-on? (kidding..a little)
and yes–definitely kick off those terrorists! 🙂
i think the point with the whole kevin smith story was not that he wasn't okay with the idea of buying 2 seats… it was that he was seated in the one leftover seat, and THEN taken off the plane. lets look at this again. HE WAS SEATED. therefore: he fit into the seat! this is about overzealous flight attendants taking him off the plane – afterwards.
i've actually had to sit next to a very overweight woman on a 14 hour flight (LA to tel aviv). i'm in the normal weight range so of course she took up at least a third of my seat. combined with the fact that all those flights are completely full of kids… it sucked. so i don't think its a bad idea to have obese individuals who cannot fit into the seat itself buy a second seat. that makes sense. yet that doesn't mean that they should have humiliated him.
seriously, we DO need to treat people like people, no matter their weight.
OOH I LOVE THIS.
SO MUCH.
You're absolutely right. There are all kinds of reasons why people don't want others sitting next to them, and we SHOULD accept people rather than be irritated because they're overweight or because they have kids.
I once got thrown up on in the middle of a flight. I still had another three hours to go, and then a stopover and a 3-hour flight after that. The vomit got in my hair and EVERYWHERE. My reaction was to ask the girl who had thrown up if she was feeling okay. It didn't occur to me until afterward that if it had been someone else, they may have given her hell. But just because we're "stuck" sitting next to someone who has some kind of "baggage" doesn't mean that we shouldn't be ACCEPTING of them, no matter who they are or what their baggage is.
I love what Dr. J had to say. Yes, kindness is good.
Saying that, it is very expensive to fly. If I pay for a full seat, I do feel I should get one. It is what it is… I don't have a lot of money so I feel I should get a full seat.
Saying that, man, those seats barely fit a regular sized person so that needs to be addressed too.
Part of me thinks that if a heavier person has to buy 2 seats, they should get a deep discount on the second one. As it is, many people are completely unable to travel, which just doesn't seem fair.
Then there are the folks who point, laugh, and take cell phone pictures of the "fatties" on the plane, so they can share them with their friends and keep on laughing. This happened to a woman who blogged about it on "Big Fat Deal."
Oh, and Anonymous #1, with the DVD player? You are a HERO!!!!!!!
The entire post resonates with me. As the daughter of two obese parents I believe that the obese person should make the call. My dad simply refuses to fly – preferring to stay home or drive rather than ask for an extended seat belt. Everyone thinks that losing the weight is a process of mind over matter – but at least for my parents that isn't the case.
As far as kids go – I'll admit that I've cringed as the family of five marches down the aisle and sits directly behind me but I've also sat next to a mom traveling alone with her son and offered to hold him while she went to the bathroom. I know from experience that flying with kids is one of the single most stressful situations that you can be in – compassion from others can be a saving grace.
Compassion, assistance and kindness above all. Sounds simpleminded but it works.
Little kids and babies can't help themselves–They don't know better. Overweight and obese people KNOW better. They didn't get overweight or obese overnight–no one is responsible for their weight gain but themselves. So while I sometimes feel sorry for parents with kids on airplanes who scream and cry for a 4 hour flight, I do not feel bad for the overweight man/woman who is taking up half my seat while eating a double cheese burgers, with fries and a shake (oh and a oversized cinamon roll with sugar frosting on it!) true story.
I totally agree that we need to be kind to everyone on a plane (we're all stuck on there for hours, and fighting/nastiness won't help), but I'm really frustrated at all the attention Kevin Smith has gotten. He bought a second seat, as he's done for every other flight he's taken, but he tried to go standby on an earlier flight. Standby is a RISK – you're not guaranteed to get on b/c you didn't pay for that flight. Unfortunately, the standby flight only had one seat available, so they wouldn't accommodate him on it. I don't think he deserves ANY compensation for that – he should have just taken his two seats on the flight for which he paid.