“Oh it’s not about the hamburger, buddy! Don’t you “just hamburger” me! That is just a hamburger like Elmo is just a furry toy with a stick up its butt! These things, they mean… other things! (And lead to lawsuits, in the case of Elmo.)” My breathing got faster as my hands tightened into fists. “That is just one more symbol of your misogynistic subconscious oppression of women! You might as well say you like your ladies dry aged like an angus and then served with a side of chips. Or maybe you’d just like us to be muppets too? So you can control our every move by sticking your hand… (ack, bad analogy detour! Rerouting…) We’re PEOPLE! With real human NEEDS! And I will certainly NEVER go on a date with you!!” I emphasized my point with a jab of my mascara wand… which hit the mirror in front of me. The black smudge brought me back to reality, a.k.a. the reality that I now had the extra chore of cleaning my mirror (they don’t call it waterproof for nothing!) and that the only person listening to my half-formed arguments was my cat. Who had been licking her butt for ten straight minutes. (Seriously how many hours a day do cats spend licking their butts? And then she wants to lip kiss me? I think not.)
Being generally non-confrontational in nature, all my best arguments are had with myself, generally while in the process of doing something inane like driving, putting on makeup or licking my butt. (Oh, wait I only wish I were that flexible.) And honestly it’s pretty rare when I get super worked up over something. Especially worked up to the point where I cause myself extra housework! So what was so egregious that it forced me to post a grammatically incorrect diatribe to Facebook? (I used “it’s” instead of “its” – I am an SAT essay grader, people! That just does not happen here!*) It was this quote:
“She’s got to be funny. I like a girl who does not take me seriously, you know? It’s important to be able to laugh at each other. And I like a girl who eats. I much prefer that she order the burger.”
That little gem was dropped in a Glamour interview with Jon Snow/Kit Harington from Game of Thrones – a guy I’ve never heard of on a show I’ve never watched talking to a magazine I don’t read. Clearly my opprobrium makes perfect sense!
Actually I have no problem with the first half of that quote – everyone should be with someone who makes them laugh (although preferably with each other and not so much at each other) – rather it was the second part. About the food. Them’s fightin’ words. If there was ever a phrase I’ve hated it’s this: “And I like a girl who eats. I much prefer that she order the burger.”
The next guy I hear proclaim that he wishes girls would “just eat the hamburger already!” is going to get a purple nurple. First problem is because dudes never say this because they want us ladies to be able to eat whatever delicious food we desire and be happy with them. (Some) Bros say it because thanks to a bunch of dishonest celeb interviews they now expect us to eat junk food – while looking like we don’t. First you make us care deeply about our weight and then you tell us we have to pretend like we don’t whenever we’re in public? As if there isn’t enough pressure to be “high school skinny” now we are expected to eat like we’re still in high school too? Well I’ve got news, gentlemen: For 95% of women the math doesn’t work that way. (Unless we’re bulimic and then that’s a whole other issue.) And we do not need to be made to feel guilty about that!
Second issue, I don’t like the assumption that ordering a salad or other “healthy” non-dude-bro food means we don’t “eat.” I happen to truly, deeply love salads. A big ol’ bowl (and I do mean big – Gym Buddy Allison and I eat salads out of mixing bowls) of chopped veggies topped with some grilled protein and a yummy sauce is one of life’s great pleasures. I’ve never been much of a burger fan, honestly. They’re okay but if I’m going to order what I really want to eat it’s probably not going to be a lame sandwich. (My apologies to hamburger lovers, I’m all riled up.)
Lastly, don’t tell me what to eat. I’m a grown woman (even if I’m not acting like it right now) and I’ve been feeding myself even before I could control my own urine so I’m pretty sure I’m capable of reading a menu and ordering something appropriate. I honestly don’t care what you “prefer” I order.
Whew. (Getting angry is kinda fun!)
And all this because of an ostensibly nice comment? I mean, I get it. I realize KittyJon wasn’t trying to be offensive. Indeed he probably thought he was saying something really sweet about women (nice, since he was being interviewed by a women’s mag). But the fact that he said it fully believing it was a gift he was bestowing on us diet-hamstrung women rankled me even more. “I like a girl who eats”? Really?? I hope so. Girls who don’t eat, die. And if I’ve learned one thing from Hollywood (besides that I must be skinny at all times including when I’m pregnant) it’s that zombies make terrible dates.
But as I sat stewing over this (and repeating to myself One who takes offense where none was meant is a fool but one who takes offense where it was meant is an even greater fool.) the responses from Facebook started to roll in. And… y’all dropped some serious wisdom on me. I might have been wrong. (My apologies to my mirror.)
Julie pointed out that maybe he wasn’t talking about the food so much as the lifestyle and honesty of the person ordering it:
” I’ve had a few guys explain to me when they say that what they mean is a girl who is comfortable enough to eat the burger in public. As in don’t order the salad then pick off my plate or complain about being hungry or go home and eat half the fridge in a binge. They said they like women of any and all sizes, as long as she’s comfortable with herself too and isn’t putting on a show”
Caitlin explained the societal meta-symbolism involved in food ordering (I feel an awesome SAT essay brewing!):
“The cheeseburger – and it’s more expensive cousin, the steak – is like the whiskey of food, in that people assume that if a woman is consuming them, that means the woman is Not Like Those Other Women and is therefore superior and more desirable because she’s not going to be prissy or whatever. I say this as someone who loves to eat cheeseburgers so I’m not hating on cheeseburgers here. Or steak, or whiskey. It’s just weird/sad to me how food becomes signifiers of so much more than what we find delicious to eat.”
Camille delved into the male psyche:
“What they really want is for us to go eat a bacon burger, then go rope a calf in the backyard, cut down a tree, hang some laundry on the line outside and then come in and start making dinner. ok, no…..I don’t really know. I think they just prefer us to not ever have gas so we should eat more red meat and less broccoli.”
Matt took a different view of what guys are really thinking:
What it actually means is they have an unhealthy fixation on what the women in their lives eat and how they feel about themselves.
And then Shannon went for the bottom, ahem, line:
“They say that if a woman eats a lot on a date that she is good in bed…..I’d like to know where they get this stuff!” (To which Matt volunteered to be the research subject for.)
So in the end… I don’t know. I’m probably overly sensitive because a) I have/had a lot of food issues and b) I’ve been on the receiving end of comments just like that one more time than I care to count. (Not from my husband though! He knows better than to say anything about my food other than “How is it?”) So I’m probably an extreme case. What do you think – was my mirror-rant justified? Or am I missing some larger societal context that exonerates JonnyKat? Has anyone ever told you to “just eat a hamburger already”? What did you say??
*Okay it totally does happen here. You know it and I know it. I’m sorry. Also, no one tell the high schoolers I’m not perfect ‘kay?
I get angry at that stuff too, and I don’t like to order hamburgers in restaurants either. Pizza, sure…but I don’t know. I’m tired of the “hey, it’s okay because men like women who eat burgers too!” How about we eat what’s good and healthy for us or what we want to eat and it doesn’t matter what men think about it? Uh-oh, now I’m getting riled up too!
I get really annoyed when men (and women sometimes) say that too. What someone else is eating isn’t your business! And if a man judges a woman as ‘prissy’ because she orders a salad/grilled fish instead of a burger, then he’s probably not my type anyway.
I might be totally off-base, too, but I have the same reaction to that kind of thing as you do. Also see: “I like when a woman doesn’t wear make-up. I like the natural look!”
Ooooh buddy, you probably have no idea what you’re asking for!
Hahah TRUE! I know most guys don’t seem to like a ton of caked-on makeup (the whole “smokey eye” trend drives my guy friends nuts) but at the same time I don’t any of them that truly like 100% barefaced – prob because they don’t really know what it looks like!
Another view of it might be (although this is being generous benefit of the doubt) is that if you’re someone who really likes eating burgers and steaks and other super rich food you migth prefer it if your friends/partners/whoever is also into that so you can go and indulge together and you can more easily not feel guilty about your own choices vs. being reminded everytime you see someone else order the salad that, crap, I should probably be ordering the salad as well and then enjoying your burger or steak less after that because now you’re feeling guilty.
But yeah mostly though, how has food gotten so complicated and emotionally fraught, it’s sort of ridiculous but I don’t think any of us are immune no matter how well adjusted we want to be.
Oh good point about the “permission” to indulge aspect! I’ve had friends call me a “buzzkill” for ordering something they perceive as healthy.
Very eloquently put. But you’re right, they’re not even aware of the offense caused by such a seemingly innocuous comment. It’s mostly their misguided attempt at a compliment.
I think he was referring to those women who will read a menu for 10 minutes muttering “Do I want the burger with fries or a fruit cup? No, wait…here’s a low-carb veggie plate with cheese that looks really good. But I really want a burger, but I don’t want all the bread, blah, blah, blah…”
To which I respond “Oh, for cryin’ out loud, order what you want! If you want the burger, eat a burger!”
WELL SAID.
Hahah- good point! I think those people drive everyone nuts – including themselves!
Yeah, comments like that piss me off too, and you’ve really covered the reasons why.
Maybe we should retaliate by saying ‘Oh, yeah, I really like guys who are confident enough to order an egg white omelet and not have a beer gut.’ Granted, that may be hypocritical, but what can I say? I like my men not dead of heart disease. And ripped.
LOL. This made me smile!
This made me laugh too! Let me know if you ever do it!
I think it is both an annoying comment (along the “eat a sandwich” line) and a spot-on commentary on how fraught we all are with trying to decide what we can and will put in our bodies. In the entertainment industry, it’s probably very difficult to find a lady friend who isn’t into the latest juice cleanse, living-on-air diet, because they’re all “just like us” only subjected to HD cameras and whatnot. So maybe he’s just saying he’d like a girl who can be confident in herself and not worry so much about a little extra padding. Maybe his publicist fed him the line. Maybe he’s warning us all to put on some fat because WINTER IS COMING!!!
This: ” In the entertainment industry, it’s probably very difficult to find a lady friend who isn’t into the latest juice cleanse, living-on-air diet, because they’re all “just like us” only subjected to HD cameras and whatnot.” is an excellent point. I didn’t consider the situational context of his comment – man I’m glad I don’t live in LA!!
Eh, I dunno. I don’t take offense probably because I am the girl who orders the burger. I got a healthy appetite for someone my size and I loves me some red meat. I also kinda sorta understand where the order-a-burger=good-in-bed comes from because there’s an almost unconscious prejudice that liking decadent food (whether that’s a burger or chocolate cake) means the person is also likely to enjoy other decadent pleasures of the flesh. Like any stereotype, that’s true in some cases and very false in others, of course. But I can see how people assume it semi-consciously.
This: ” an almost unconscious prejudice that liking decadent food (whether that’s a burger or chocolate cake) means the person is also likely to enjoy other decadent pleasures of the flesh. ” is a really good point! And I know a lot of people believe it. I wonder if studies would support it if anyone ever tested it? I love social science!
Yeah, I’m with you Charlotte. I don’t think he meant it offensively but I’m annoyed by men saying that too. I’m all for having a burger sometimes (okay, I’m not since I don’t eat meat and never have but french fries, yum) but mostly I’d rather have a salad or something. It’s not because I don’t like junkier food and not because I have food issues too (okay, mostly not that) but because I know my body and I know when I eat crappy I feel crappy. And here’s the thing, when I feel crappy I’m grumpy and just want to be left alone. That sounds like a recipe for a romantic date, right?
I think my biggest problem with his comment though is that it’s just one more example of people commenting on what other people eat. Seriously, I just want everyone to shut up about it. Up to and including the waiters who say things at your empty plate like “wow, you didn’t like that at all.” All of that drives me crazy. Eat what you want to eat and leave me alone.
That is the worst when waiters do that!! I think so many people are blissfully unaware that many people have serious food and body image issues, and that it’s best not to say anything because you never know how your comments affect someone. I really struggle with eating habits, and my boyfriend’s family is totally unaware and really frequently make me uncomfortable by talking more than necessary about what I am or am not eating.
Um, YES to this: “it’s just one more example of people commenting on what other people eat. Seriously, I just want everyone to shut up about it. Up to and including the waiters who say things at your empty plate like “wow, you didn’t like that at all.” All of that drives me crazy. Eat what you want to eat and leave me alone.” Just don’t comment on my food! Anyone! Please!
I agree with the sentiment that the statement is more about an attitude than the food itself. It seems to be recognized that if a lady orders a hamburger, she is relaxed, laid back. Obviously this can be true…or not. I’m not exactly sure how food became a predictor of personality., seems pretty odd to me Either way I don’t think the actor meant any offense.
And “Maybe he’s warning us all to put on some fat because WINTER IS COMING!!!” Awesome – Bahahahahahahahaha!
🙂
Oh I laughed so hard at this! If someone actually said that in an interview I’d love them forever!
Whoa, whoa! Zombies make terrible dates? Did you even SEE Warm Bodies?!
But seriously, it usually bothers me when people say things like that, just because it makes me a little more self-conscious about what I’m eating. I wasn’t even thinking about it when I ordered the burger (or the salad), but now I know that you’re taking mental notes? Great. Sometimes, though, it’s said genuinely enough by someone that I trust (and don’t usually feel food-self-conscious around) that I actually take it as a compliment.
What would really annoy me is when people would make comments when I’d order a Diet Coke. Especially when I was in junior high or high school, every time I’d order one, someone would say “Girl, you don’t need to order diet!” or something like that. Occasionally, they’d even debate me and try to talk me into a regular. At that point, I was young enough that I didn’t even care about weight loss, I just hated the taste of regular sodas. All they were doing was putting extra annoying steps into what should have been a simple drink purchase.
Buwhahah! No, I didn’t! But I’ll take your word for it:) Also, your Diet Coke dilemma reminds me of that scene in Napolean Dynamite where he says to Deb “Why are you drinking skim milk? Is it cause you think you’re fat? Cause you’re not. You could totally drink whole.” ROFL.
I think the quote is a simplistic way of saying “relax and don’t make a production about eating”, which strikes me as a healthy approach to topic.
I hope so! And I’m known for reading too much into things;)
I can see a bit of what he means. Going out with a group of girls for supper can be a chorus of “oh I’m going to splurge and have ___” or “oh I’m watching my diet I’ll just have ___”.
I just want to eat. Guys don’t as a rule seem to do that. They just see what they are going to eat, order it and eat it and enjoy it and move on to the rest of life, burger or not. Many people (guys and girls) could learn from that I think.
Good point about the gender difference! I’m sure I put way more thought into it than he did, lol!
I probably can’t add much here, because I’m a single 33 year old woman so what do I know about how men think. But for the sake of conjecture, I’m going to say that I think that any one of the replies you received may be, and likely is, true to a certain extant depending on the man saying it. I think some men really do want a “man’s man” eater who looks like a Hooters waitress, I think some men really just want their lady to not care so much about what she is eating and he’ll love her no matter the booty size, and I think some men just get weirdly turned on watching a woman eat a burger. (This last one, I actually know to be true with at least a handful of men.)
I think, in the end, we women think about the underlying meaning much more than the man saying it. That’s almost a universal truth.
Also, “laughing at” got me riled up more than the rest. Semantics people, it is IMPORTANT!
Excellent point about the meaning differing depending on the guy saying it! And I didn’t realize men getting turned on by women eating hamburgers was a thing… until I just googled it. And now I kinda wish I hadn’t. I’ll never look at McD’s the same way again! And yes, semantics IS important!
I’m sure not all dudes are like my husband, but he would like me to order “the burger” (as a code for something yummy and not healthy) because it gives him permission to also order “the burger” and not feel bad.
Also, you find the BEST pictures. I kinda want big mac eyes now…
I was also thinking that about the picture(s)! How long does it take you to find them?
Sadly sometimes it takes me longer to find the pics than it does to write the post! (What does that say about my priorities… hmmm?) So glad you liked it!
Gah, I’m SO glad I’m not in my 20’s or single anymore! Which is not meant as a jab toward 20-somethings or singles. It’s just that when I WAS 20-something single lady I would OBSESS over what to order on those rare occasions when I actually had a date. In my teens I read an interview with an actress in which the interviewer (as always) described what she was eating (WHY do they do that?!?!?!) and marveled at her metabolism, as she’d ordered the full-on burger/fries/regular soda. And, of course, that stuck with me. And made me even more paranoid than I already was, believing that any time I ate out (or even in the dining hall at the dorm) there was someone watching and judging.
I think his comment was well-intended. But if guys knew what went on in our heads when it comes to food, they’d probably never, ever, ever, ever mention anything edible ever again.
BTW, when Hubby and I were dating, I was contemplating whether to have a snack one night after class. He said “If you’re hungry you should eat.” It was a revelation! You can see why I married him! 🙂
Aw I love this SO MUCH. You guys really are one of my fave couples:)
I think what Julie (quoted in your article) said was pretty spot on. Some women on a date will make a big show of how healthy they eat, or get something light, specifically to impress a guy or not wanting to come off like the eat a lot. Particularly if they are a little self conscious about their weight. It seems weird to me, but I think that used to be a ‘thing”. I don’t remember ever doing this..but I remember seeing stuff like that in advice columns a number of years ago. Tips of dates or something.
There is another poster here who I think had a good point. Sometimes (and I’ve noticed this in a group of coworkers..gads) everyone will get to talking about their diets, and making a huge deal of what they pick verbally, or go on about it guiltily say how horribly horribly “bad” they are being by ordering a burger or whatever (guess feeling guilty makes it have less calories don’t ya know). It’s really kind of a downer. So it may be more like ‘order what you’re going to order, healthy salads, fish and broccoli, or a big old burger, without making a big must about it. ‘
I think he’s trying to say in a sense, that he likes a girl to just relax and be herself and not get so caught up in appearances or how she’s perceived. Unfortunately I think it came off like the reverse to some. I don’t find it offensive at all.
People picking on my diet coke does annoy me though.
This guy didn’t say it very eloquently but I think all the estrogen is making you all a little crazy. A big part of the issue is whether or not the woman is comfortable enough with her date that she can order what she likes and eat what she likes without being judged. That is what the guy wants. So many women seem to think that for some crazy reason guys appreciate the opportunity to spend $50 to take them out to dinner only to have them eat $2 worth of food. The burger or the salad is actually irrelevant. It’s a turn off to invite a woman to dinner and have her not eat with you. If you know the guy is taking you out to dinner, do him the courtesy of being at least a little bit hungry when you get there so he’s not wasting his money on your mistaken impression that he loves a woman with no meat on her. The breaking news is that men don’t find those skin-and-bones lingerie models the least bit attractive. The whole size 0 thing only appeals to women.
The bottom line is that the guy wants to do something with you. In this case, eat with you, rather than for you. Letting a guy take you to dinner and leave most of your food untouched, or even not ordering anything but a side salad is inconsiderate. It’s the same thing as letting him take you to a movie and you bring along your latest Twilight novel to read in the lobby because you’ve already seen it. Just be considerate. Be yourself. Don’t play games and don’t put on a show. He’ll probably like the real you better than the “barbie-doll” version of you anyway.
Sorry you are so worked up (and had to clean your mirror!!).
I guess I’m to the point in my life where that kind of thing doesn’t bother me. I eat what I choose and I don’t really care what others are eating – even when I’m with a group of people. I understand some people have dietary restrictions due to health and some just choose to avoid certain items and some (me) just eat whatever (in moderation) – I think it’s all good! Just as long as no one tells me what I should eat!!!
I must say I like your rant. It definitely annoys me when guys say this and then when super thin girls feed right back into it by saying things like “OMG I eat SOOO much! I always eat like TWO cheeseburgers.” And then when you are out to dinner with them and being a pig yourself they don’t even eat a bite of a cheeseburger!
I think both sexes sort of feed this whole annoying cheeseburger thing. Because guys say that, you get girls who then don’t really eat the cheeseburger feeling like they need to claim that they do, which in turns only creates more problems with women’s relationship to food. (And makes those of us who really do pig out on the burgers occasionally feel bad because these women claim they do but really don’t.)
I don’t know…but this whole situation really does annoy me.
As a former “just eat a burger” or “eat a sandwich” type person (for the record, I NEVER told anyone in person, mostly just the skin-n-bones Victoria’s secret models), my idea of that was to just be yourself. My little sister had a friend tell her to always eat before going out to dinner with a guy so then you don’t eat as much on the date, and I told her that you should just eat a normal amount. Pigging out isn’t cool (at least in my mind), but neither is eating nothing. I was never afraid to eat what I wanted to on a date because I was healthy and had decent confidence (not being a teenager with an awesome metabolism 🙁 plus 2 children has changed some of that). But either way, if a date actually made a comment about the amount or type of food I was eating, that would have probably gotten a smart remark from me! (Then again, I have been called a smart-a** a time or two.) As an adult woman trying to make healthy decisions, I would definitely question the motivation of the comment.
This post made me think of when I was young (in my 20s) and in the Army, and the guys I used to hang out with (they were just my friends; we weren’t interested in each other “that way”) used to tell me that one of the reasons they liked me was because I’d go out with them to Taco Bell or Carl’s Jr or wherever and just eat what I wanted…like they did. I wasn’t all “girly” or “oh, I can’ have that, I’ll get fat” about it. I think it made them comfortable with me, just hanging out, having fun.
To this day, (I am now in my 40s), my husband loves it when I say, “Hey, let’s go get a burger and fries.” I don’t think he’s anywhere near as happy when I cook a lot of veggies so we can be healthy…
What the my hubby doesn’t see now and my guy friends didn’t see then were the days when I privately watched what I ate so I could seem so fun and spontaneous…the not so fun part of it. And would they think I’m cool for eating “whatever” if I weren’t thin? I don’t know.
But you know…I get really sick of female friends/co-workers who are always saying, “I shouldn’t eat this, I just want a salad.” Because I know they don’t just want a salad, or they wouldn’t be talking about it! It would really be more fun, and less stressful, if we just ate what we wanted! Otherwise, if they eat a salad and I choose the burger, I feel kind of guilty, and why should I? So I’m not surprised if a guy feels the same way.
But yeah, sometimes I really do prefer a salad… Food should not be so complicated!
As someone whose parents forced her to eat burgers, chicken nuggets, and chug Ensure as a child in attempting to fatten her up, any man who orders a burger for me at a restaurant better be ready to have me throw it right back up in his face. Literally. The taste of burgers make me gag.